New Info On Mormon Church’s Anti-Gay Agenda

These guys just never stop! New information is now slowly beginning to leak from inside the LDS (aka Mormon) church about their Anti-Gay agenda.

Mormon President, Thomas S Monson

As many people are aware, the Mormon church recently managed to get itself into the good graces of some in the nation-wide LGBT community by supporting Salt Lake City’s new non-discrimination ordinances (barring discrimination in the workplace and housing ((with exceptions)) ). However, new documents being uncovered by Reed Cowan, director of the upcoming 8: The Mormon Proposition, which date back over 10 years ago show that church leadership has had this in their game plan all along.

Although the full documents may not be made public until late January, they allegedly outline a cold game being played by the Mormon Prophet and the “Quorum of 12

Dallin H Oaks

Apostles” against the national Gay and Transgender community. Dallin H. Oaks of the Latter Day Saint high command is quoted as saying, “..in order to win the overall battle, there may have to be certain legal rights recognized for unmarried people, such as hospital visitation, strictly so opponents in the legislature will come away with something.” As many people may recall, this is almost identical to the documents that were discovered of communiques between the Mormon high command under the last church president Gordon B Hinckley during the fight for marriage equality in Hawaii. Oh yeah, and if you don’t know Dallin H Oaks, he’s the one who barely bothered to veil his comments when speaking to all members of the church earlier this year, calling LGBT people “filthy.” Then when he was called out on it he was also the one who said the “sufferings” of Mormon church members due to the backlash over Prop 8 was comparable to African-American sufferings in the south during the 1960’s.

So what does this mean for the nation and the more progressive states that are beginning to have the understanding that LGBT citizens are human (you know, progressive places like IOWA)? It means that the gold-laden and bloody hand of the LDS church is incredibly far-reaching, and if you’re not careful you’ll be stuck in the 18th century like us here in Utah. Personally, I can’t wait to get my hands on the full documents we’re hearing about. I guarantee I’ll have them to you in a heartbeat, and I have a feeling Monson won’t be thrilled.

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28 responses to this post.

  1. Look, I hear your points. And I’m Mormon. I completely understand being judged and looked down upon. I recently have been defending the way gay men and women are treated unequally by a large group of Mormons who fiercely believe our constitution was inspired by God, yet DON’T believe that all men are created equal. I’m at my wits end with the bigotry and ignorance.
    You aren’t filthy. I apologize that we’ve judged you (not I in particular, because I don’t, but as a whole body).
    I get beat down, verbally, because I think that if mormon men and women want to keep their “liberties” (Glenn Beck style) then they need to be consistent with what liberties are. If they want to give embryos the right to live, then they need to support a person dying that is in need of health care. Instead a large group of Republican, radical type Mormons say they would be enslaved by supporting a universal health care system. Enslaved. Then they turn and enslave others by not supporting equality and the freedom of speech and expression – free agency, ultimately. The list goes on.
    However, I’m still Mormon. I am perhaps far, far, far more liberal than most, and you know? Argument after argument shows me that I’m right in being this liberal. I cannot grasp the blind, ignorant reasoning behind many of these Mormon Republicans. It’s wrong. But, I still believe the gospel is true. I just think that many of the men are biased and ignorant. THAT’s the cultural or “cultish” side to Mormonism. The gospel though? Christ’s principles? The good the Church DOES do for people in need? I think these things are good and true and right. But it’s run by men, like our government, and, yeah, it’s corrupted a bit. Now people would freak out if they read that: corrupted. But you know? You don’t need to have dirty money to be corrupted. It’s mindset, it’s pride, it’s ignorance – all of that corrupts the kindness and love which SHOULD rule men. For example, even IF you are gay, why shouldn’t YOU have the benefits of the gospel? Bear with me on my example, here, but why don’t you deserve the fellowship and support of the elder’s quorum then? What makes you SO different? Are not those men sinners, too? But instead, if you voice your opinion and don’t comply – you get kicked out. AND THAT’S WRONG. I hope you know that there ARE some Mormons who understand this. Gay or not, Christ would have sat by your side without judging you. He would have befriended you. And THAT’S the way Mormons need to be if they really are “the perfect, God-appointed” group of people who will save this earth via their message. Now are you wrong for being gay? Well, personally, I wouldn’t be with a woman, because Mr. Valentine is hella fly. And I mean hella! But I’ve kissed a woman, back in my pre-convert, alcoholic days. So you know? I can’t judge you. Only God can judge not only you, but me as well. And I drink caffeine. So do MILLIONS of mormons in the form of soda. But they are okay, there, because it’s not “coffee” or “tea”. Seems like bending the rules to accomodate in my opinion. Yeah, there is a little corruption. But in the end, I think the message is still true. It’s just interpreted by men who can’t see it clearly.

    Reply

    • Posted by ethingtoneric on December 27, 2009 at 11:59 am

      Gabrielle:
      Thank you for your thoughts. As you may or may not know I was raised in the Mormon religion in SLC and I want you to know that it is the people like you that actually show what the religion is supposed to be. Unfortunately those Mormons who think like you are incredibly few and rare to find, and are almost non-existent in the general leadership. But I think you’re a hero (as you said, Glenn Beck style!) for your wonderful openness and acceptance of your fellow men. Thank you.

      Reply

  2. Posted by Kate on December 27, 2009 at 11:49 am

    Wow. That will be interesting when it is released! Thanks for the heads up on that.

    Reply

  3. Also? I think there are even more complex approaches to this. If you (not YOU literally, but as a general question) If you ARE gay, are you promiscuous? Do you sleep around? Are you married to a woman but sleep with men on the downlow? Or are you monogamous? See, there are far greater sins than just BEING gay. For example – a mormon who looks at porn and flirts with women but does it on the downlow doesn’t seem as high on the totem pole to me as a goes-to-church-each-week, volunteers, GAY man who has been monogamous for 25 years, who has worked hard to adopt and give a good life to three children. I hope you understand, I’m just trying to put it into a greater perspective. If premarital sex is wrong – well – a group of gay people will nearly ALWAYS be breaking that commandment because there are no marriage rights for them. So essentially, WE cause them to break MORE commandments (if we believe being gay is wrong). Does this make sense? Intellectually, there are just so many issues and parts to this. I can see your points, completely and I’ll raise them, poker-style, to include the higher ones which bring about these sorts of questions. My point here is this: that monogamous gay man (and thus his children and their future offspring) would be shunned, whereas the Mormon man who flirts and looks at porn would be welcomed time and time again. And that’s wrong.

    Reply

    • Posted by ethingtoneric on December 27, 2009 at 12:23 pm

      Gabrielle:
      I think the overall issue here is not what is and what is not the greater sin. The issue is that the Mormon church is attempting to force it’s own values on people who have no relation to itself. Now according to the LDS gospel that was what got Satan cast out, wanting to force everyone to do what he believed was right. I fully support the Mormon church in it’s right to preach whatever it wants, even if that means they call me a sinner because that is freedom of religion and one of the founding principles of our nation. However, what right does the LDS church have to force myself, and millions of other non-members to follow it’s tenants? I believe that the only political battle any church should ever be involved in is one which involves a direct affront to their own teachings (ie, a law which would force the Mormon church to stop performing baptisms for the dead). Other than that, preach what you want in your church, but stay out of my home unless I invite you in.

      Reply

  4. Posted by Joshua Zollinger on December 27, 2009 at 12:32 pm

    Gabrielle, I’m so glad I’m not the only church-going Mormon who reads this blog. I too, am an active church-going liberal. I’m going on a mission, heading out in the next couple of months. I also support the LGBT community, and have even gone so far as to march with them during the common ground initiative. I wish that there were more open-minded people in the church. After all, Christ did come to save the sinner, and aren’t we all sinners? Why should one class of sinner be treated so much more poorly.

    Fortunately, the point Eric makes about the hierarchy is temporary. Yes, the leadership of the church tends to be made up of related, conservative, older men. (Btw, Eric, I highly recommend a book called “The Mormon Hierarchy: Extensions of Power”. I think you’ll appreciate it. It’s not anti-Mormon, but it does look at church leadership in a more… mortal… light than is common.) However, the younger generation of LDS, especially those outside of Utah, are far more liberal than our parents. Eventually, I hope, these anti-homosexual trends will be as outmoded in LDS society as anti-black trends were in the 60’s.

    Reply

    • Great points, Joshua. Just as the baby boomers are now retiring, I hope you are right about the trends changing as more and more liberals convert or are born and raised by more liberal parents.
      Good luck on your mission!

      Reply

  5. Posted by Matt on December 27, 2009 at 4:02 pm

    Here are some other issues to discuss. The LDS church is not the only religious community against having unions between recognized between homosexuals called ‘marriage’. The majority of Christian ( any group who claims belief in Christ) religions do. What the LDS church did with proposition 8 was alert the majority. As you hopefully are well aware voting turn out is generally very low. Therefore often what happens is a very vocal minority opinion is often victorious in voting decisions. The LDS church ( as well as many other christian and non-christian organizations) saw this about to happen again and decided to not stand by while this happened again. They let people know what was about to happen and let people know that this was not something they can just sit by and let happen. So I believe the majority was represented and that is why it was passed. This was all done legally and peacefully. While many groups supported this for some reason LDS were targeted by the pro gay marriage community. There were violent backlashes and property was damaged and lives put in danger. I acknowledge that may have been done by an extreme minded few, but it still happened. Understand the LDS are not ‘anti-gay’ in that they don’t shun or oppress homosexuals. They are against a union between same sex partners feelings. They believe the family is the central unit in society (a novel idea) and that it is morally wrong for two people of the same gender to engage in sexual intercourse. If a minority decided that gay incest was ok and wanted those relationships to be legal what would you do. Assuming all people find incest wrong I am pretty sure you would be against it. You can’t explain why it is morally wrong ( there will never be children and both are consenting parties). Something deep inside tells you it is wrong. Well that is your opinion. So to it is with gay marriage. Mormons say it is morally wrong. Homosexuals say it is not. There is no harm done so human well being either way. The only way to settle this in a civilized society is democratically. Vote. If the majority is properly represented at the polls then justice is done. Don’t get mad because the LDS are doing the same thing you claim to be standing up for their right to have an opinion and say in how society is run.

    Reply

    • Posted by ethingtoneric on December 27, 2009 at 6:06 pm

      Matt;
      Thank you for your thoughts! Unfortunately you seem to be under the illusion that this country is a democracy. Unfortunately for your argument, we live in a republic. And our constitution was designed specifically to protect the minorities rights, and not subject them to the will of the majority. Where would the LDS church be today if the majority of the country was allowed to vote on it’s validity? I respect your right to believe what you do, even though you believe that I am not as good of a person as you are even though we’ve never met. But why is it that you seem unable to respect my beliefs, is it intolerance? What the Mormon church preaches inside of it’s walls and among it’s followers is it’s own business, and I will never tell them their religious tenants need to change (unless of course in the completely unbelievable scenario you chose to make a comparison to in incest). So why is it that you or your religion has the right to tell me what I should believe?
      Remember those lessons in Primary? What was the Son of the Morning cast out for? It was his unbending will to force people into God’s plan. How does that differ from what you want to do by forcing others who have no relation to your religion to live as you want them to live.
      Oh and by the way, who was it who said, “Allowing the majority to vote on the minority is like allowing two wolves and one sheep to vote on what to have for lunch.”

      Reply

  6. “calling LGBT people “filthy.””

    Full quote please.

    Reply

    • Posted by ethingtoneric on December 27, 2009 at 6:12 pm

      Seth R:
      General Conference, Oct 2009. Dallin H Oaks: “they must remain filthy.” This is the same conference talk where he implied that LGBT youth who come out to their parents and do not wish to attempt to hide who they are, do not deserve their parents love.

      Reply

  7. Posted by Matt on December 28, 2009 at 12:00 pm

    I understand you are coming from a defensive point of view. I do not judge people before I know them. While I do not believe being homosexual is moral I acknowledge that you have the right to be so if you so desire. I lack sufficient information about you to pass any real judgment. I assume everyone is doing their best to be a decent person unless proven otherwise. Please recognize that you have made a judgment on me without knowing anything about me either. I am not even LDS or Christian technically. I am agnostic. I believe that what the LDS church is doing is just as justifiable as your efforts. My ‘unbelievable metaphor’ of incest was just to show an example of something you find morally wrong, but can’t really prove harmful to others. I was showing that in situations where the only thing argued is moral opinion then in America we vote to settle the difference in opinion. You are not being suppressed or forced to agree with the LDS. They have the right to their belief as much as you do. While minorities rights should be protected as you have pointed out it seems minorities have used tactics that are not justifiable either. Affirmative action is not the way to solve a moral issue. It is also a form of discrimination. My opinion is that you can get a civil union and get all the rights you want, but the LDS believe that it should not be called Marriage because they hold that term as a sacred union between a man and a woman. So why must it be called marriage if you just want the rights? Do you think that the beliefs of a few should be forced on the majority? I just don’t see how you can argue that the LDS church is using your same tactics,but it is wong to do so and the LGBT is right.

    Reply

    • Posted by ethingtoneric on December 28, 2009 at 11:13 pm

      Matt;
      Thanks again for your response! Unfortunately your arguments expose a deep flaw in your understanding of the issues, primarily rising from what a church has the right to do, as well as the rights that are available in this country for people in the LGBT community.

      Any church, be it Mormon or other, has little business in the political arena, as their primary function and purpose is of a spiritual nature. Naturally what you believe spiritually spills heavily on an individuals choices and political nature but only as an individual, rather than the organization as a whole. The LDS church spent $30 million dollars on a specific political campaign which in no way affected itself or it’s rights to worship and teach as it pleases. Not only did it spend the money, but over every pulpit it has in California they had a letter read making it very clear that according to them, God wanted them to act politically. And it even went as far as use it’s members in other states like Utah to donate extra time and money calling residents of California to sway the vote. Now all of that in and of itself is not a problem, except that it was driven by a religion, and a religion should never act as a political party. If someone believes in God, and the people the believe to be in direct communication with that God tell them they must do something, it leaves no room for personal judgement, independent thought or feelings. And this is not just California either. Due to the efforts of the LDS church, LGBT people in Utah have virtually no protections, whether it’s hospital visitations, adoption, civil unions, marriage or (in most cases) even workplace or housing rights.

      Also, your argument seems to claim that Proposition 8 was only about the actual word, “marriage.” You are far from correct unfortunately, if that were the case people would still be upset because no matter what you believe, my beliefs make me no less of a person than you. But this is about much more than the word. Please do your homework, as you will find that there are over 1000 rights on state and federal levels that are granted to married couples than are afforded to couples with only a civil marriage.

      Again, I respect your right to think the way you do. But no one is forcing or attempting to force the Mormon church or anyone else to believe that others are as good as them. The only thing that is being asked is for everyone to be equal under the eyes of the law. Is that so difficult a thing? Many people have different beliefs, be it religious differences, skin color, sexual orientation, accents or Coke vs Pepsi. But just because you believe one thing doesn’t mean that those who believe something else should be punished does it? Your argument basically boils down to the idea that because I am different inside than you are, I have no right to enjoy the same legal rights that you do.

      Oh, and by the way, before you make another claim that the Mormon church doesn’t discriminate against people who are gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgendered, please do some reading and let me know if you see anything about the Greenhaven program at BYU.
      Cheers!

      Reply

      • Posted by joel on December 31, 2009 at 10:36 pm

        Eric, your argument about God not being involved in political things doesnt hold much water. Assuming you are a bible believing person, there are numerous times where God directed the prophets (or the ruler) to act politically. God sent Moses to free the Jews from the Egyptians. God commanded the Isrealites to declare war on several groups of people. Etc etc…

      • Posted by ethingtoneric on December 31, 2009 at 11:19 pm

        Joel;

        Thanks for your comments! And congratulations on your knowledge of the bible. Unfortunately you seem to be under the impression still that this is B.C. Israel. Welcome to America my friend. In this place our constitution has guaranteed that anyone of any belief has a place in our great nation, and no God of any religion has the right to impose on anyone else. The Jews have no right no impose their beliefs on the Christians, the Christians have no right to impose their beliefs upon the Atheists and so on.. Nice try though!

  8. Posted by Mark Lawrence on December 28, 2009 at 12:57 pm

    Matt I would like to submit a rebuttal to your points.
    1. “While many groups supported this for some reason LDS were targeted by the pro gay marriage community.”
    A. The LDS where targeted as a response to the membership of the LDS church funding a 28 million dollar campaign that financed the proposition 8 loss. This entire campaign was full of lies, distortions and mis-truths. The lies and deceit propagated by the LDS Church membership is why they were targeted and attacked, they are not the victims here.
    2. “They believe the family is the central unit in society (a novel idea) and that it is morally wrong for two people of the same gender to engage in sexual intercourse.”
    A. Sexual intercourse between two same gender people is something that your Church leaders only conceive in their minds. Your people separate us because of what they perceive we do. They have no idea or no business in my private life and to justify legislation against me based on what they conceive is wrong and cannot be justified.
    B. “The family is the central unit”? WTF? We have families to, and our families are just as good as Mormon families. We have children and contribute to society.
    C. Being gay is not about sex. The sooner your leaders learn that, the better we will all be.
    D. Why to you people keep comparing us to incest and other deviations? WTF?
    3. Unless your Church is willing to let me vote on your marriage you will cannot vote on mine. This is not voting issue. Civil rights have never been granted at the ballot box and quite frankly, your church has a broad history of fighting against every single civil rights issue that has come up. Your people have sustained bigotry and intolerance since civil rights issues have begun and this is no different.
    4. I wonder what your Church would do if through legislation the LDS Church was found to be a cult and not a valid religion and therefore all LDS Temple marriages are invalidated.
    5. “Don’t get mad because the LDS are doing the same thing you claim to be standing up for their right to have an opinion and say in how society is run.”
    A. Why does the LDS Church claim the right to govern my life, based on their morality and belief system? Is a church forcing its values on me, religious freedom? Where is my freedom?
    6. “Mormons say it is morally wrong”
    A. Well in my opinion, which is just an opinion, Mormon beliefs are morally wrong. Should that give me the right to dictate by beliefs and moralities onto them?
    We will win our battle and the Church will loose just as they did with the ERA, Interracial Marriage, Blacks right to Vote, School Segregation, Roe Vs Wade and every other civil rights issue that has come before the Supreme Court. The LDS Church has always lost and will continue to do so.

    Reply

  9. Posted by Matt on December 30, 2009 at 10:57 am

    I seem to have been misunderstood. I am not affiliated with the LDS church. I am just observing what they do and saying they have the right to do that just as much as you have the right to fight for your side. Please do fight for what you believe in. Don’t do what you say the LDS Church does and take half truths and incomplete information and skew it to make it look like something else. Mark made it seem that he believes that the LDS church is racist and wants to keep all minorities down. While that may be true of some individual members we can hardly say that is the stance of the church. True they didn’t give blacks the priesthood until the 70s, but if you research it is not for any racist purpose. (in their minds at least). All I argue is they have the right to encourage people standing up for what they believe. If they don’t want gay marriage then they have to go through the government to make it so. Why do we vote? Two parties have a difference of opinion and want use a democratic process to make sure the highest number of people are satisfied. This usually involves some sort of compromise on both parts.

    Also Mark said that I was comparing being gay to incest. I was merely giving you a situation that you would reject only because it is morally wrong. I used gay incest because regular incest does have negative genetic outcomes often. So I used gay incest because there is nothing wrong with it other than it is seen by most as being morally wrong. To the LDS and many other people homosexuality is seen in the same way. A sin against nature. Some argue that clearly it is not something that promotes the propagation of the species and if all people were exclusively gay then the human race would cease to exist and therefore it is not something that is supported by a positive forward moving species. You may argue that among many mammals there is homosexual intercourse, but most understand that is merely for pleasure. So a lot of people are naturally against it as something deep inside them tells them it is not the way to survive. That is what I have found speaking with different people on why many in society find homosexuality morally wrong other than religious beliefs.

    I personally have several friends and a few family members that are gay. As Mark said that part of their personal life is not my business in any way nor any one elses. In this country at least you can freely be homosexual, transgendered, or straight and not have anyone interfere. What is being contested is not your right to have feelings for someone of the same gender, but the decision for society on whether they want to say that they accept a same sex relationship as ‘marriage’. You cannot force your belief that being homosexual is just fine onto those who don’t believe that it is anymore than they can force their beliefs onto you. You can have a relationship with the same gender if you want. You could even perform a little marriage ceremony, but it won’t be recognized unless the government says it is valid. The government is supposed to be by the people for the people. So the people vote. If you want people to understand your point of view then take the high ground and tell people why you believe you deserve to call this relationship marriage. If they vote against it then respect the decision of the people. The LDS feel that if gay marriage is accepted as just fine by society then that society cannot be blessed by God. It is morally compromising for them to just sit back and not do what they can legally to make gay marriage not allowed. I will be honest I have not researched their financial records or the legality of what was done. If it was illegal there should definitely be punishment. If it is all legal then they can go ahead and do what they believe is right. Pro gay marriage movements has huge financial support and free propaganda from almost the entire media. Hollywood has been pushing the idea strongly and the media has been shoving it in the faces of people all over the country. If the relationship is not anyone’s business it should be kept behind closed doors. Gay marriage has nearly all the left wing media on it’s side. You really think it is not ok for the other side to have their say?

    additional points-I don’t think gay people are less than straight people. I used the insect example to show you a situation you find morally objective not to say it is like being gay. I am NOT LDS

    Reply

    • Posted by ethingtoneric on December 31, 2009 at 12:08 am

      Matt;
      I find it admirable that you have put so much thought into your feelings. It is always difficult for people to swallow however the level of politicizing that you and the other far-right conservatives force these issues into. You are talking about people’s lives, their own private lives. This is not healthcare nor a gun-control debate. I couldn’t care less about what you personally, or any other individual or religion think of myself or my relationships. If you want to believe it’s a sin, fine. If you want to believe it’s immoral, fine. However, what right do your feelings have to invade my home. You speak of LGBT rights and “acceptance” as if this movement has the ultimate goal of forcing you to like us. No. We don’t care what you think, what we want are fair and equal laws.

      Let me give you a prime example. You (as a heterosexual I’m assuming) meet a woman on the street while on a vacation in Vegas, you decide to get dinner together that night and on a rash decision run out and get married. Under state and federal laws you now have full protections of every kind, from hospital visitation to estate to child visitation. Now on the other hand, there is a loving couple who have been together in a committed relationship for 25 years who have no option to get married because they are both female. One of the two get sick, and the other is barred from making any medical decisions on behalf of their loved one or even visiting because legally they are not family. The first passes away and although they have lived together in the same house for 25 years the surviving partner has no rights to their home because the family of the deceased takes it, she also has no visitation rights to any children that her partner bore even though they raised them together. Add on to that the constant fear of being fired if her employer discovers the aspects of her private life.

      This is not an unusual story, but occurs on an almost daily basis nationwide. Now please explain how allowing those two women to be treated as equal citizens as yourself under the law makes any demands on you. They are not seeking social acceptance, religious rights or anything else from a private organization or individual. They simply want the right, as you so easily enjoy, to live their life as they best see fit.

      It is unfortunate that in your fervor to protect your own beliefs you so quickly marginalize the lives of others who would make no imprint on you. I’m sorry Matt, but I feel remorse for you if it is true that members of your own family are different from yourself and you still cannot open your heart to see what your bigotry costs them. And if you choose to reply to this, please don’t make false claims that your feelings aren’t bigoted, because you are fighting into strangers’ lives and attempting to push your own belief system on them. And there is nothing crueler than to hurt others for no other reason than they are different than you.

      Reply

  10. Posted by Gail F. Bartholomew on January 4, 2010 at 4:29 pm

    Matt,

    I am a straight male Mormon. I disagree; if you do your research the reason behind blacks not having the priesthood does seem to be bigotry. There is no scriptural basis for it. There also was no prophet or leader who claimed to get revelation to keep blacks from the priesthood. When Brigham Young calls for death for whites that mix there seed with blacks it only sounds like racism not theology to me.

    The same is true for all the Mormon Church’s efforts to discriminate against homosexuals. They have no support in scriptures or in revelation. Many will say I am wrong. Let me illustrate. The two places in the scriptures that condemn homosexuality are Leviticus and the writings of Paul. In Leviticus you will find that with the exception of a few quotations of one of the Ten Commandments the Mormon Church has chosen not to follow any of it save the condemnation of homosexuality. The writings of Paul are similar. The Church almost completely rejects everything Paul says on sexuality. Paul says you can serve God better as a single person. He also says the only reason to get married is if you are unable to control your sexual desires. These two things are direct contradiction with Mormon doctrine. Yet we Mormons chose to continue to condemn homosexuality. Also, there are no revelations that condemn homosexuality. Most Mormons will refer me to the Proclamation on the Family, but this document says nothing to condemn homosexuality and have never been called a revelation by the brethren.

    Matt you also argue that since we live in a democracy that the church can use their votes any way they want. May I ask who has a right to vote to illegalize your marriage? Fortunately, we live in a democratic republic which protects people’s rights. At the time of Brown vs. The Board of Ed. most of America believed in segregation, but our government protected the right of the minority even though they could not win these rights at the ballot box.

    The Mormon Church pants their actions as protecting our right to worship the way we want, particularly Elder Oaks. The truth is every same sex marriage law that has been enacted has included strong religious protections. That is over and above the 1st amendment to the constitution. The Mormon Church in these efforts do nothing to protect marriage they only attack one type of marriage.

    Unfortunately, the fight against marriage equality is not the only thing the Church does to discriminate against our homosexual members. Homosexual members are asked to keep there orientation a secret and only sharing there orientation with there bishop and a close family member, treating there orientation as a serious sin. We as members straight and gay are asked to only refer to the homosexual orientation as same sex attraction relegating it to a term non equivalent to homosexuality similar to calling blacks colored. Using a none-equivalent term implies pathology. This is only the beginning of the reason why three times the gay men commit suicide in the Mormon Church than straight men.

    Yes, the Mormon Church does have the right to fight to insure they have the right to marry who they want, or to call marriage what they want, or even to claim that homosexual sex is not part of the doctrine. The Mormon Church should not have the right to fight to destroy families of people that do not even belong to the Mormon Church. The Mormon Church should not have the right to say what I call or anyone else calls marriage. The Mormon Church should not have the right to make people feel like crap for who they are.

    Reply

  11. Posted by Jack on January 5, 2010 at 12:05 pm

    No H8…so let’s bash the mormons instead of trying to persuade people to support us. Oh please the views of this blog are just as bad as anything the LDS church is accused of doing. Don’t YOU hate. No hate=love all as though they were your own family and do not distort little half truths into facts. Use positive methods. Say you have the right and why…not this hateful crap you have displayed as your blog.

    Reply

  12. Posted by Gail F. Bartholomew on January 5, 2010 at 1:16 pm

    Jake,

    Thanks for your post. Please, help me understand a few things.

    “let’s bash the Mormons instead of trying to persuade people to support us.” What would you have me do? The Church I love and have supported throughout my life is doing things that deeply hurt even attack people I love. I have spoken to my local leaders. I have written many times to the Brethren in Salt Lake. I have e-mailed specific general authorities. I have spoken on the phone with church head quarters. I can’t exactly stand up in fast and testimony meetings. How do I work to help an organization I am part of and I love to understand the pain we cause collectively and individually, without saying things that you would not call “bashing”?

    “do not distort little half truths into facts.” Please illustrate to me how I have used half truths. What have I said that is untrue in any way?

    Thank you,
    Gail

    Reply

  13. Posted by Gail F. Bartholomew on January 5, 2010 at 1:32 pm

    Sorry Jack for calling you Jake, my mistake.

    Reply

  14. Posted by Henry F on January 13, 2010 at 11:54 am

    Eric,

    Because of a friends link on Facebook, I discovered your blog yesterday. All morning I have been thinking of it. I am encouraged by your approach and willingness to listen as well as your thought-provoking responses. Thank you!

    I am a married, straight, LDS male. I am committed to the LDS church and it’s teachings emotionally, physically and spiritually. I love and trust the leaders of the church. Not blindly, but because, in my heart and in my mind, I feel certain I am on the right path.

    That being said, I find myself torn with the issue of gay marriage. I have family members struggling with gender identity. My former MFA advisor, one of the men I most admire and respect, has been in a committed monogamous homosexual relationship for nearly 30 years. Having gone through art school and now teaching art at a university, many of my friends and colleagues over the years have been gay or lesbian. These are people that I love and trust.

    Commitment seems a key issue for me. Promiscuity is not defined by sexual orientation and in my opinion is just as damaging in a same-sex relationship as it is in a traditional heterosexual relationship. I think it is shameful for a husband to leave his wife and children for another woman, but no less shameful is a wife leaving her husband and children to begin a lesbian relationship. I have had associations with each of these examples. Humans have appetites, yes, but to do any of these seems without integrity. Trusting covenants and binding commitments are broken and destroyed.

    In a conversation with my MFA advisor (who knew I was LDS and well aware of the church’s beliefs), I asked him about marriage to his partner. He wanted the rights of those who are married but did not want to be constrained by the heterosexual definition of marriage. I do not know if he meant he wanted to change the current institutional definition of marriage or have a new definition assigned to a homosexual union. Knowing that I am probably going to offend readers on both sides of the issue, I believe that same sex marriages are morally wrong, but by my same principles, so is adultery, and adulterers are entitled to all legal rights under the constitution. Perhaps opinions would change should those who have strayed from their spouses lose rights.

    So my challenge is reconciling this conflict within myself. I am not sure how to do this. Some might call me a coward for not taking a stand. I believe however that maintaining convictions based on faith is courageous. Just as brave are those who choose an opposing path in spite of all the challenges they will face.

    While I try to resolve this I have realized that I must do three things. Perhaps this is oversimplified, but it is what I feel good about. I must trust my leaders. I must love all those who share and do not share my beliefs. And finally, I must have faith in a Savior in whom I believe understands far more that I.

    I hope I have not been too contentious. Best wishes.

    Reply

    • Posted by ethingtoneric on January 13, 2010 at 3:11 pm

      Henry F.

      Thank you very much for your comments. Quite the contrary from being contentious, I find your thoughts to be honest, well-meant and from the heart of one who truly feels love for the fellow human beings but is also attempting to understand our differences.

      I don’t know if this helps, but let me focus on my opinions based off of friends who are LDS, as well as my own past experiences. The most important thing to focus on, is that this is not an issue that means you need to follow the LDS church or not. The two do not need to be reconciled. This may sound strange coming from me, but it’s OK for the Mormons to preach that I am a sinner, that those members of your family and your mentor are sinners. That’s ok, that’s freedom of religion to believe how you want to believe. But at the same time, that has no relevance to same sex marriage. The issues in this conflict only arise from those who want to create one from nothing. Your religion’s freedom to teach and believe what it pleases behind it’s doors is fine and has no relevance on my life. Why? Because I choose not to be a part of your religion, no one holds a gun to my head and forces me to sit down in sacrament meeting. On that same line, what two people choose to do in their own lives has no relevance or basis in your life or to your religion unless you choose to let it in.

      Once the terms are understood, I hope the reconciliation is a little easier within yourself. The Mormon church preaches that drinking and smoking are bad, and yet liquor and tobacco are not illegal because free will and freedom under our constitution exist. By the same token, the LDS church may preach that gay marriage is a sin, but that has (or should have) no relevance to anyone who does not choose to live the religion.

      Anyway, thank you again for your comment! Please feel free to read through any of the other articles here and I hope to hear from you again!

      Eric

      Reply

  15. Posted by Gail F. Bartholomew on January 14, 2010 at 12:49 pm

    Henry and Eric,

    I agree with a lot of what both of you are saying.

    I think there is more problems here than either of you are addressing.

    Eric I agree that the church is going to far trying to make things illegal that they do not believe in, but there is p residence. The church has a huge effect on the Utah drinking laws. But as a member of the church I believe this issue goes far beyond the church’s political actions. This issue is about the unhealthy environment the church is for it’s homosexual members.

    Henry it sounds like you may not be able to reconcile what you know to be true about homosexuality and your commitment to the church so you keep at arms length. Truth is if you would look at the contradictions in the face it is very ugly.

    I like you have been an active member all my life and had close friends that are gay. I was able to keep the issue at arms length when it came to close to home.

    If you believe homosexuality is real like heterosexuality is real, and people can be moral productive people in monogamous same sex relationships than really what business does the church have trying to make this type of relationship illegal.

    Henry you talk about the woman leaving her husband for a woman. Can we look at the reality of this situation. The church does all they can in the lives of homosexual members so they would never consider the option of being gay. The only option many gay members ever even considered was heterosexual marriage . This is the only option we are taught will get us to the Celestial Kingdom. So if this person never even asked themselves the question am I gay until they had been married for years. Years of not only an unfulfilled sexual relationship, but one that was degrading to her. One that she felt guilty for not wanting. So after so many years of this coming to the understanding that she was gay. Why should she continue in this relationship that is degrading. Why would we want to set an example to our children that we should have degrading sexual relationships. Should we teach our children that marriage is about unhappiness. So if this woman finds some one she truly loves why is it wrong for her to remain in agony. Why would she want to teach her teach her kids to choose captivity and death instead of liberty and eternal life.

    There is so much more that is painful for homosexual members, and the political actions of the church only heaps more pain on top of the rest.

    Thank you,
    Gail

    Reply

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