Senator Orrin Hatch Supports Gay Marriage?

In a recent posting on his weblog, Salt Lake Tribune writer Robert Gerhke wrote:

“I could be bitter. I seem to have been left of Sen. Orrin Hatch’s Christmas-card list this year. I’m told his staff even got copies of his new Christmas album. But super-secret sources leaked me a copy of the card that the senator sent out and pointed out an interesting feature.

The back of the card has a picture of the state’s senior senator, his
great wife, Elaine, and President George W. Bush, the lame Christmas duck. But what’s with those little diamond designs on either side of the
photo — the blue square with the yellow “equals” sign in the middle.
Looks familiar. Where have I seen that?

Oh, yeah. It’s the logo of the Human Rights Campaign, which, according
to the group’s Web site, is the nation’s largest organization “working
to achieve lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender equality.””

So does this mean that our illustrious conservative Utah senator is secretly pro LGBTQ rights? Probably not, but you know some staffer is in quite a bit of trouble!

Look at the two equality signs to the side of the picture!



45 responses to this post.

  1. Posted by Brad DiIorio on December 26, 2008 at 3:26 pm

    Quite a stretch…


  2. But amusing 🙂


  3. Posted by creativepaul on December 26, 2008 at 11:47 pm

    i am so sick of hearing about this stuff. look, i’m not opposed to gays but you people need to learn that the majority of the country is not on your side and never will be. no matter how far our cuntry lets its morals slide, it will never go down far enough to allow gays to have the same rights.


  4. Seriously, what is creative about you, “creativepaul”? Besides your spelling, that is?

    And you know what? Our country is based on the idea that the majority can’t trample the rights of the minority, now matter how much we are despised. And if you look at laws in the rest of progressive countries, we’re very much on track to getting the same rights everyone else has.

    Closed-minded bigots such as yourself are very much the minority, and will continue to decrease in number. Just wait until you realize that. You should thank your lucky stars that doesn’t mean your rights will be taken away. Idiocy won’t ever be a crime in the US.


  5. BTW, the resemblance is far more obvious if you click through and see a bigger image.


  6. Posted by TheOneGirlThatBreaksYou on December 27, 2008 at 12:06 am

    First of all, creativepaul, please learn to punctuate and capitalize if you would like to be taken seriously.

    That aside, I’m glad you speak for ALL of Americans.

    What exactly do you mean by “you people”? I’m actually surprised people like you still exist.

    There are not two (or even six) defined sides to this argument. I happen to be one hundred percent straight and I think it’s absolutely horrid that gay couples cannot enter into a legal marriage.

    Are you saying that “gays” (I assume you’re also someone who calls African-Americans “negros”) aren’t equal citizens? What gives you the right to produce such hatred toward a group. Regardless of your personal feelings you must recognize that The Constitution says that all people are created equal and those living in the United States shall have the same rights.

    You speak of morals. If you’re gathering your moral basis from the Bible why don’t you read the passage that says “Judge not lest ye be judged.” Or how about the whole slew of scriptures on love. Remember that whole New Testament thing?

    I’m glad you say that “it will never go down far enough to allow gays to have the same rights” because when they do you can eat your ignorant words.

    My advice to you, if you’re so darned sick of hearing about this stuff then read something else. Eric’s blog wasn’t forced down your throat nor was his opinion placed in your church.


  7. Creativepaul – I wonder, if you’re so sick of hearing “this stuff,” why you’re reading it? But, on the other hand, I am happy that you are because the more you see that there are others who think differently, the more you may start to realize, slowly but surely, that a country’s morals are not sliding when they progressively give equal rights to all human beings regardless of “differences” of any type.


  8. Posted by creativepaul on December 27, 2008 at 12:52 am

    wow. all you guys can come up with is attacks on my punctuation? listen i’m not trying to create a big contraversy, but you have to admit if you’re honest that most people recognize what you do as a sin. the bible clearly states that you are a abomination! but that aside, why can’t we all still get along. i’m more than happy to be friends with my gay neighbors as long as they don’t preach lies to me or my children. what else would you have me do?

    i’ve been reading this blog for awhile because some friends told me that ethingtoneric is spreading a lot of lies and trying to show gays as being natural. i know you will probably have a lot to say about it, but we all know that’s not true. sorry to burst your bubble, but someone has to speak the truth.


  9. creativepaul,

    Yeah, gays and shellfish are both an abomination. Hope you’re not eating shrimp.

    And really? You’ll be friends with us if we don’t preach to you or your children? I think that you just lost your point. Considering that so many people do knock on doors to preach their ideas, yet “we gays” don’t really go out looking for recruits. We just want to get married. And if you want to talk about preaching lies, try any Prop 8 commercial.

    Gay is natural, just look at one of the many species of animal (look it up, I dare you).

    And if you have a point, besides wanting to put us down, feel free to make it. But, as fair warning, if you fail to make a real point, we’ll call you out on it.


  10. Posted by alibeast on December 27, 2008 at 11:37 am


    preach? really? from the guy who just said “sin” and “bible” and “abomination”, you’re truly worried that gay folk are the ones preaching? now, this may be news to you creativepaul, but a) not everyone is christian b) not everyone shares your views of sin c) the minute you tell people that they’re unnatural and that they don’t deserve the same rights as everyone else gets at birth, you’re going to piss people off and start a fight, whether that was your original intention or not.

    and please enlighten me-what exactly do you mean by “natural”? because misty is right, if by natural you mean that found in nature. because not every one of “god’s little creatures” is monogamous, heterosexual, or even of one of the two narrowly defined sexes. some animals, like certain fish, can switch hit, so to speak, turning male and female. compared to that, your gay neighbor is pretty banal, yes?

    i hate to burst your bubble, but that’s the truth.


  11. Posted by creativepaul on December 27, 2008 at 11:50 am

    preaching about gayness is completely different than preaching the gospel of jesus christ. i’ve already said that I truly don’t have a problem with it, but can we at least agree that children shouldn’t have to be exposed to that kind of lifestile? and dont compare animals to people. human beings are designed by god to be higher specese. and we have free will. i have never seen anything credible that shows that somebody was born like that.

    i hardly think that being queer and eating shellfish is the same thing. that was a local custom of the time, but being gay like that hasnt changed since christ.


  12. Posted by Alec Gehrke on December 27, 2008 at 12:00 pm

    It is terribly upsetting to see creativepaul and so many others upset against the idea that two human beings would delicate their lives to each other with love in the legal biding of marriage. A common argument used is that allowing gay marriage would alter tradition. Let’s not forget that marriage began as a legal contract giving a woman to a man as legal property. Let’s not forget that the color of two people’s skin also once prevented them from marrying. The tradition of marriage has been constantly changing. However, marriage is about love and allowing two people in love to receive legal benefits and rights because of their union. All people are created equal and therefore deserve equal rights.

    Many have stated that homosexuality is a choice. This has been scientifically disproved many times, but even if it were a choice, the idea of discriminating against a person’s choice of whom to love is unacceptable. People should not judge them for this just as I would not judge a friend or anyone else for marrying within a religion. Equality must be universal. Likewise, everyone must refrain from judging others simply because they are different. Refusing another person from the same rights you enjoy is self centered and hateful no matter your religion, race or sexual orientation.

    The fact is people are passionate about their beliefs, but they must not force their beliefs on others. If the Mormon Church or any other church does not want to allow gay marriage in their holy buildings, I will respect that decision. However, under the legal system of our country, equal rights must be given to all because this country does not belong to any one religion or group of people, but to all who are born in this beautiful country. Give everyone the equal right to marriage. Protect their rights just as I hope we would all stand up for the rights of any religious organization or any race that is being discriminated against.

    This is not a movement in the direction of hate, but exactly the opposite. This is a movement for love because love does exist among those who do not share your sexual orientation. Do not discriminate or deny them equal rights because of whom they want to love. Support their love just as they support yours. Support their families just as they support yours. Support their marriage just as they support yours. When we refuse to support equality and understanding, that is when our society is hurt and this great nation is damaged. This country was not created in a perfect form; Women were not equal, African Americans (a minority) were not equal and so many organizations such as the Mormon Church (another minority) were once persecuted. However, the country was founded with a system that aloud this hate to be stopped and for equality to expand, even if the people being discriminated against are a minority. Celebrate the diversity of all people in this country by pushing for universal rights. After all, it is that spirit of democracy that makes this nation great, that makes this nation beautiful, and makes this nation a safe haven for all despite their race, gender, religion, and, hopefully soon, their sexual orientation.

    A message of love is not a damaging lie, Creativepaul.


  13. creativepaul,

    I suppose you think it’s better that children be exposed to two parents who despise each other, but stay together “for the children’s sake”? Yeah, that’s much healthier than the children seeing two people who love and respect each other.

    And I think it’s funny that you almost got my point, yet still remain blind to it. Eating shellfish was “uncommon”, as were homosexual relationships. Abomination did not mean what it means to us today.

    But even at your more basic understanding, you are simply twisting scripture to suit your own understanding. Anyone could do that. And for those who aren’t Christian, why do you think it makes a lick of difference to them what the bible says?


  14. Posted by Kate on December 27, 2008 at 12:11 pm

    I believe to truly teach the gospel of Jesus Christ is to teach something more important than mere tolerance…LOVE.
    I’m not a hippie, but I know that love is the deal.

    Do my motives come from my own opinion of sin and righteousness or from love?

    Would Jesus be part of a movement to suppress other lifestyles…one said to be of choice…and sit by watching my brothers and sisters kill themselves for ‘failing to change’?

    Tell me creativepaul, would it really take something as drastic as a loved one taking their own life for you to see it isn’t a choice?
    My friend, on his way to shock therapy in good ole Provo, Utah, filled with fear, heard a voice say, “I don’t make mistakes”.
    He is living a happy, LOVE filled life now. My other friend? Will never have such a chance as he chose death above ‘disappoint’ his friends, family, and religion.

    *I’m not fancy with words and rarely post so excuse me if my punctuation is off. I try 🙂


  15. Posted by creativepaul on December 27, 2008 at 12:15 pm

    ok, seriously. what are you all doing if not preaching hate? i’ve been called a bigot and a few other things since my first comment and now you want to claim that i’m the one filled with hate? reality check people.

    what this all truly comes down to, is that queers are not being denied any rights at all. you already have the right to marry! you just need to be marrying the right type of person. meening of the opposite gender.

    so scream all day long about it, but you are not going to get these “extra” rights that you are trying for!


  16. Yeah, we will get our rights. You’ll be the one left screaming.


  17. Posted by creativepaul on December 27, 2008 at 3:51 pm

    see now thats bitter and anger for you. im trying to have a serius conversation.

    look this all boils down to the simple fact that being queer or gay is abnormal in our country, and you cant expect everyone else to just fall over themselves just so you can be specal.

    what you do in your own bedroom is your own bussness, but what gives you the right to force it on me and my family?


  18. creativepaul,

    There’s nothing that you’ve written that suggests you’re here for anything but to argue. You have yet to make an actual point.

    Being gay is not abnormal, not matter what your church tells you. You just want us to be abnormal, so you don’t have to think for yourself, or question everything else church teaches. And I understand that, I’ve been there myself.

    There’s nothing about my family that forces anything on you and your family. In fact, it’s quite the opposite that you are trying to force your beliefs on us, in order to change our lives. You want to rip apart the lives of over 35,000 Californians, so you can feel better about yourself. Sad and pathetic.


  19. Posted by Chris on December 28, 2008 at 7:18 am


    I changed two words in your first remarks, not because I agree with the rewording, but so you can feel what you said to and about those who are gay.

    i am so sick of hearing about this stuff. look, i’m not opposed to christians but you people need to learn that the majority of the world is not on your side and never will be. no matter how far our world lets its morals slide, it will never go down far enough to allow Christians to have the same rights.

    Every argument that you could make to oppose this new statement has a parallel argument in the gay community.

    The statement you made was very hateful. You should read the rest of what you wrote the same way. If you do you will see that your faith dictated truth, is hateful and discriminant against those of different beliefs.

    The goal is to make being queers the same as eat shellfish “a local custom of the time” that would not tolerate it, but perfectly acceptable now.


  20. Posted by creativepaul on December 28, 2008 at 12:53 pm


    the proglem with your argument is that we’re NOT talking about christianty here. frankly the comparison is almost insulting. we’re talking about being gay. im sorry but you cant compare the two. how can you stand up for something that is so clearly outlined as sin?

    i think the problem everyone is having here who is repling to me is that they are trying to not talk about god. how can you have a debate about queers without god? its not my fault its a sin, im just upholding god comandmints.


  21. creativepaul,

    It’s only outlined as sin if you misinterpret the bible. And, I would like to point out that many people don’t believe in the bible. If the Christian bible is your only point of reference, you’re preaching to the wrong crowd.

    I am a Christian, but I cannot imagine trying to talk to anyone else (who isn’t) as if they should just accept the bible as an authority for whatever I’m talking about. That’s just insulting to everyone, and makes you sound like a blithering idiot.

    Come on, creativepaul – I’m sure if you try hard enough you can make a real point, even if no one agrees with it. But, you haven’t gotten close, yet.


  22. P.S. If you’re wanting to debate Christianity you’re on the wrong blog, creativepaul. This blog is mostly about LGBTQ issues, not Christian ones. I’m sure Google would be happy to provide a more relevant blog for you to blather on.


  23. Posted by alibeast on December 28, 2008 at 7:32 pm


    dude. spellcheck. it makes you seem a lot smarter. really. you know when the little red dotted line shows up under words? it means they’re wrong. fix them.


    you can’t say “sin” without immediately implying religion. the very roots of the word are deeply imbedded within religion. i challenge you to find one argument against the gay folk without dragging god or jesus etc into it.

    quite frankly it’s really easy to talk about lots of stuff without having to talk about god at all, including gay people and their relationships.

    i wrote my senior college thesis on exactly this. just try and challenge me. dig deep, deep down and pull out your best logical argument without using god, sin, or religion; about what exactly is wrong with gay people, what is so bad about them.


  24. Posted by Chris on December 28, 2008 at 10:15 pm


    I was not talking about Christianity, I was talking about hate stemming from a differences in beliefs. You believe in being Christian because of something inside (you may correct me if I am wrong). Many believe in being LGBTQ because they would not be happy otherwise. Did you realize you were attacking others beliefs? They hold their beliefs as dear to them as you hold yours to you. What I posted was to point out that you would feel discriminated against if someone was saying the same things about you and your beliefs. Put yourself in their shoes for a minute. Consider their beliefs, they are as important to them as your beliefs are to you.


  25. Posted by creativepaul on December 29, 2008 at 5:55 pm

    although your argument has some meret, the logic is flawed. the difference between what i said and what you are trying to push is that christianity is not a problem in the world. being gay is.

    how about this, allowing gays to marry only puts presures on kids. gays would be allowed to adobt and that would only increase the number of gays in the world. ive said before that while i dont care what people do in there own homes, you cannot subject kids to those kind of life choices.


  26. creativepaul,

    Christianity has been a problem in the world. Remember The Crusades? Or how about children who get thrown out of their homes for not following their parents’ chosen religion (which is promoted in the bible, btw)?

    Me being gay doesn’t hurt you, unless you’re peaking in my bedroom window.

    Being gay doesn’t put pressure on kids. Children of gay parents are no more likely to be gay than children raised by straight parents. If sexual orientation of parents determines sexual orientation of children, there would be no gays in the world, according to your argument that God created us all straight.

    And if we “cannot” subject kids to those kinds of life choices, I’d say you would need to ban children from being raised as Jehovah’s Witness or Mormon or Christian Scientist, or atheist, or any other religion that “most” of America disagrees with and finds odd.

    The problem with that idea is that this is America. America was founded on the idea that religion can’t dictate the government, and we should all be free to make our own choices. You accuse us of harming children, but you have no proof. If you look at the facts, gay parents are not in any way, shape or form harming their children because they are gay.

    You are apparently singling us out because your religion tells you we are evil, and yet you don’t seem to be going after things that obviously harm children, such as abuse, poverty, lack of medical care, the list goes on.

    While I can’t read your heart or mind, it appears to me that your motivation is more that you think coming after us would please your version of “God”.

    Too bad you aren’t using that energy to do something truly positive for kids, like volunteering with special needs children, or writing your legislators to get them to pay attention to the needs of children in our country.


  27. Posted by creativepaul on December 30, 2008 at 12:32 am

    i would say that is rather presumptuos of you to think i dont volunteer for anything. i am very involved with local charties and even at the local road home for abused children. nice try thogh.
    this shold make it clear to you that my big goal is to help kids. i do not say that gays are the only bad parents, but they definitely are. maybe they dont phisicaly abuse the kids, but just by being gay is abuse in itself. it forces kids to deal with lifestiles and choices that they shouldnt have to think of.
    this is also why i support not allowing confused kids to quote unquote come out in school or other places before theyre 18 because they dont have the mental capacty to make that kind of a choice yet. and all it does is creat conflict with other kids as the confused child may try to push his new choices on otheres.


  28. Posted by alibeast on December 30, 2008 at 12:33 pm


    first off, i hardly call what you wrote an argument. at best it was a poorly worded opinion. by your line of “reasoning”, gay parents only produce gay kids, adopted or otherwise, like some sort of gay boot camp? nice try. in the little thing i like to refer to as the real world, being gay is not caught like an airborne disease. it’s closer to something like eye color, which as far as i know, cannot be changed at the whim of adopted parents.

    also, the fatal flaw of your “argument” is that you assume that being gay is a bad thing without any explanation. let me state that again: why is it so bad?

    giving children loving homes should be your first priority, if you truly care about giving kids lives. i hope you realize that YOU are really the one standing in the way of these children getting all the love they deserve. it’s your kind of mindset that drives families apart.

    and really, if you can’t articulately explain (and spell) an argument in the english language, you aren’t going to get very far on this forum.

    i eagerly await an intelligent response, creativepaul.


  29. Interesting letter to the editor in the editor in the Trib today:


  30. Posted by beetzart on January 1, 2009 at 3:21 pm

    It is because of pro-theocratic thinkers that the United States will hardly- if at all- get anywhere in terms of policies and law.


  31. Posted by creativepaul on January 2, 2009 at 2:35 pm

    my argument is pure and simple is not that gays themselves are trying to be bad parents, they simply are. meaning that they become bad parents simply by being gay. as a child grows, they naturraly begin to question the world and everything around them. now as everyone knows this is not a simple proces, especially i n todays world. and you’re telling me that the best thing to do on top of that is add more confusion and trouble to their minds?
    you want them to try to figure out why their parents are different them all of their friends parents? that they should have to explain to all their friends why their parents are different. they does not creat a healthy recipee for a growing mind, and its bound to turn them to unhealthy things resulting from depression.


  32. Oh Paul,
    Those are some nice claims you make there about the children of gay parents. Unfortunately (for you) the data doesn’t back you up.

    Children of gay parents grow up to be just as healthy and well-adjusted as children of straight parents. And, despite the whole “recruitment” nonsense, are no more or less likely to be gay than those of straight parents.

    I’ve no doubt that children of gay parents have challenges no faced by other kids, namely they do, as you yourself say, have to face prejudice and homophobia from other kids. And I’ve no doubt that this happens in even the most liberal, accepting communities. But this is not a failing of that family. Your argument is completely analogous to saying that black families shouldn’t be allowed to movie into white neighborhoods, because the kids will be confused over why they’re so different form everyone else.


  33. Posted by alibeast on January 4, 2009 at 5:50 pm


    *massages temples*

    greenishblue has a very valid point. there is absolutely no evidence that simply being gay makes you a horrible parent, incapable of raising children. and again, you have not actually explained what about simply being gay is so bad. you just assume it is and run with it.

    having gay parents is not a new or necessarily difficult thing. again, your mindset, the one of “they’re different, let’s point it out and twist it into being something horrible” that makes kid’s lives difficult. you know what’s REALLY hard for kids with gay parents to grasp? why YOU think there’s something wrong with them. because i have known kids (now adults) with gay parents, and they are like every other family, just with the added bonus of having to deal with idiots like you.

    life’s hard enough for kids without you making it even more difficult. food for thought. it seems like your brain could use it.

    spell correctly next time,


  34. Posted by chris on January 5, 2009 at 7:59 pm


    I repeat the same thing over and over… The same thing can be said to you, about you, and your beliefs. If they are said about your beliefs you find them offensive but you are so prejudice that you refuse to be just.

    You show ignorance in most of your statements, do the research before telling lies. You don’t want others sharing lies to you and your family please stop sharing your lies with others.

    You say kids are confused in high school. Why is it okay for someone confused to come out as straight but not okay to come out as gay? You also say that explaining how their parents are different is bad. Would it be bad for children with Christian parents, living in other places around the world, to explain to others how their parents are different? NO, you would say this is fine for Christians. You have a completely hypocritical double standard.


  35. Posted by creativepaul on January 5, 2009 at 8:19 pm

    i want to post a coment that a friend of mine made on a similar blog:

    “There is no foundation for this in Gods word. Long term fidelity between gay men is much lower then between heterosexuals. So chances are real good that this relationship will go bad and legal issues will only add to the emotional damage created. I’ve worked with many fine foster homes that, while overburdened by the system and the numbers, are doing an incredible job. And, I’ve seen first hand the emotional turmoil created by same sex couples dragging children into the mix. Two gay families in my neighborhood, four children total, and all of them are experiencing pretty severe problems, from acting out, to depression and promiscuity at a very young age.”


  36. Posted by alibeast on January 5, 2009 at 9:19 pm

    creativepaul, have you ever looked at divorce statistics? that said, there are also theories out there (and when i say “theory”, i mean studied statistics with research backing them up) that lean toward the fact that when people around you have little faith in your relationships, they tend to fail?

    did you know that suicide rates and attempted suicide rates are astronomical in the gay community? ever stop to think why that is?

    also, i never said that gay people make spectacular parents. there are people on this earth that should never procreate or rear children. sometimes those people are gay. however with that said, you can’t write off being gay as an automatic detraction to parenting value, because it just isn’t: there is no evidence of it. anywhere.

    by the way, nice spelling. oh wait, you copied and pasted. scratch that.

    and didn’t i dare you earlier to not mention god in an argument? you know, the same god who was all “don’t wear clothes made of more than one fabric”? (leviticus 19:19) hm…

    alright, how about this: not everyone agrees on “god”, right? but i’m pretty sure that every cognizant human being can agree that we’re all human. from there, most people want the same things out of life, yes? isn’t part of that happiness? i think you see where i’m going with this.


  37. @ Creativepaul:

    Ah, but that’s just it, isn’t it? Note how all of your ethical and statistical reason have failed to hold any water, so you have retreated to what, as far as I can see, is the only possible justification for denying the right of gay marriage: the religious arguement.

    Fortunately, we live in a nation founded upon Enlightenment ideals, including the principle that our nation’s laws and government should never favor any particular religious viewpoint, but instead should leave religion to the churches (temples, mosques, etc.).

    (And let me preempt any “this was founded as a Christian Nation” response, because the facts will fail to back you up on this.)

    This is why we do not force rape victims to marry their rapist. This is why it is permissible for women to go to the store without the accompaniment of their husband. This is why, as ali points out, you can enjoy your cotton-poly blends and delicious lobster bisque. This is why an expression of love and commitment — an expression that BUILDS social cohesion — should not be barred simply because YOUR particular brand of religion frowns upon it.


  38. Posted by creativepaul on January 6, 2009 at 10:31 pm

    ok people, look. ill be honest with you. this is normaly where these talks lead wth me. you gays ask me to not talk about god, so i dont and then its a war of these studies vers those studies that people claim. i personaly read alot of places claiming to have the facts, but i dont ever see them. can you name a single legit study to back up your clames?


  39. Paul,
    That’s a perfectly fair request.

    An excellent summary of the data is available form the American Psychological Association, and it is well worth reading in its entirety:


  40. Whoops, linked to the wrong page. That’s just a single page of a more expansive document, which is available here:

    Or as a PDF here:


  41. Posted by alibeast on January 7, 2009 at 1:01 am

    do you really think we’d make all this stuff up? look, everyone can hold really bad opinions, but i like to stick to solid facts, thanks.

    if you can find access to jstor, “a not–for–profit organization dedicated to helping the scholarly community discover, use, and build upon a wide range of intellectual content in a trusted digital archive”*, go nuts creativepaul.

    one catch: you have to pay for access. so buddy up to some lawyers or scholarly people. my thesis dealt with labeling theory, christian fundamentalism, and gay marriage rights in the united states. i found almost everything from there.

    but really, is the american psychological association good enough for you? and, as you’ll notice, they are pretty fantastic at citing their work. within greenishblue’s links you’ll be able to find dozens of articles themselves, chock-full of information proving you dead wrong.

    *taken from their website


  42. While we’re on the topic of science, there was a new paper in the Journal of Pediatrics on the results of parental rejection of their homosexual children, which shows pretty unequivocally that such rejection is highly correlated with a plethroa of health issues, including suicide, depression, substance abuse and risky sexual behavior.

    For just a single example, gay and lesbian children who experience rejection behaviors from their parents are eight times more likely to attempt suicide — EIGHT TIMES.

    There is an excellent and accessible writeup of the paper here:

    Paul: I’m interested to hear your reaction to some the studies listed, particularly the APA summary I posted a few comments ago.


  43. Posted by chris on January 8, 2009 at 1:05 pm


    Unfortunately your friends personal experiences are with families living in extra challenging environments. He has extra access to people with family problems because of his work with foster homes. If he doesn’t associate with gay people out side of this the only ones he will know are ones with problems. Real experiences but he is in an environment where he will see the worst. If that was the only place he know Christians from he would say the same “I know XX Christians and all of them have children that are…..” And only because his experiences would be limited to Christians with children in foster homes.

    I realize that these studies are mute to you because they are foreign to you. Now, put your self in the shoes of the gay couple. You do not need to be gay to understand, you just need to be part of a minority that is trying to succeed in a realm that you have been told you cannot. In addition because it is believed that you cannot succeed you are denied support that is afforded to others that try.

    Imagine your marriage, if it is like mine at times you have struggles. We have the benefit of family, friends and society as a whole that believe that our marriages should succeed and gladly offer help when troubles arise. Now imagine that your parents do not approve of your marriage, most of your friends do not want to hear about your marriage, and most religious leaders say you should not have ever gotten together with your spouse. Would these things make your marriage harder to succeed?

    Now add on top of this pay more taxes, higher insurance premiums. What would you need to do to compensate for these penalties because you do not fit the mold of success? Wouldn’t this further make it harder for you to show that you really are as good as anyone else?


  44. Posted by alibeast on January 10, 2009 at 12:01 pm

    ah, the beautiful sound of silence.


    • Posted by ethingtoneric on January 10, 2009 at 2:37 pm

      Hello everyone;

      Just a quick thought from having watched this all play out. Creativepaul obviously came into this with a lot of preconceived notions about “wrong” and “right,” and I’m always thrilled when a dialogue is opened on this topic. It’s very interesting to see what happened from his first comment, down to actually asking for more information. I don’t know if his mind is actually changing, but it’s a critical point to get to, having them start actually questioning.

      I would like to echo some of creativepaul’s sentiments in a call for civility. So many of these people are going to come at us in an incredibly rude, antagonistic and condescending way, but how are we ever going to help pursuade them if we respond in kind with spite? I love you all, and thank you so much for each of your comments, I hope it’s not over.

      To creativepaul:
      I hope we haven’t heard the last from you. There is a lot to learn, and this can always be a safe forum for you to speak and question openly, without fear of reprisals or hatred. There are a lot of sterotypes, and preconceived notions on multiple topics that we grow up with. Some are stronger than others depending on our childhood circumstances, but it’s important to break through these and discover what our world truly looks like. Most importantly, please continue to work to understand the struggles of others, and never dismiss someone out of hand just because someone else told you to. Again, I hope to hear from you again, whether on the weblog or elsewhere. If you would like my personal email, just post a quick comment asking for it and I’m happy to send it to you.

      -Eric Ethington


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