What Would You Do?

I’ve been speaking with several people over the past month or so about the issue of Equal Rights and Gay Marriage, both through this weblog, and in other places. Being in Utah, I have of course found several people who disagree with my opinions, and the conversation has invariably come down to that they just don’t want their children being exposed to legalized Gay Marriage. For all those who have come to this conclusion, I would like to pose a question to you, please take some time to think about it, then post your reply. Love to you all!

“What would you do if one of your children came to you and told you that he/she was gay?”

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37 responses to this post.

  1. Posted by Kyle on November 19, 2008 at 1:54 pm

    If my child told me he or she was gay, I would be devasted and disappointed. Of course I would still love them and help them out with what ever they would need. I would not disown them or cast them out. If my child were gay however, I still would not support gay marriage. I would continue to support domestic partener registry so they would be able to have all of the benefits and protections that anyone would be entitled to.
    Let me ask you a question, if I may;
    “What would you do if your parents had decided 30 years ago to be gay and not get married or have kids?”

    Reply

  2. Posted by ethingtoneric on November 19, 2008 at 2:05 pm

    Kyle:

    You must remember that being gay is not a choice. Even the church leadership has told me (when I was still a member and discussed this with them) that they believe that people are naturally gay or straight, or somewhere in the middle, the church just believes that people should choose to ignore their natural feelings, because “Heavenly Father wants them to act a certain way.” So if my parents had been gay, they would have been gay, the issue was not marriage.

    I think that you may have hit the nail on the head for many people who are opposed to these laws, they think that if Gay Marriage is legalized in more states, that less children will be born. But remember that people who are gay, are gay, and illegalizing Gay Marriage isn’t going to make more straight people.

    You may find this interesting, it’s a short clip, and it’s a bit cheezy, but it’s still very informative http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKExZKfgx9s
    It’s part of a full length movie, but just this short cartoon clip was put up on youtube. Let me know what you think!

    Eric

    Reply

  3. Posted by Kyle on November 19, 2008 at 2:59 pm

    I will take a look at it. I agree with you on the way that we are born. I believe that certain people are born with certain tendancies, sexual and non sexual alike. They are given to us for a reason. It is up to us to fight and prevail. Some of us are born with gay tendencies. This would be our challenge in life. Some of us are born with tendancies to drink or do drugs. That would be another’s challange. It is not for us to give in to any and all whims just because we are born with them. We were told it would be hard and there would be many hardships and difficulties. I know I have my own and I’m having a real hard time overcoming them. But like any test or battle in life we need to overcome what we are most susceptible to.

    Reply

  4. Hello,
    I consider myself a God Fearin’ Mormon. I am a convert to the LDS Church and have grown up in the Lutheran Faith, when my Dad was Catholic. there was not the stigma of Homo-sexual people placed upon me by my family as other families in my Church(s) (respectivally, both growing up and the LDS). I have not developed a bias stigma about those who prefer the company of their own sex, like many in the world today. That being said, I do hold to the idea that it is right for the sacred union of two people called marrage (and they shall leave their mother and father and two flesh shall become one) should be resurved only for one man and one woman, both consenting and of leagel age to be considered: Adults.

    I have a son and If he ever comes to me and proclaims that he is Gay, I would accept it as a matter of fact.

    some would say,”What no harping of the him for choosing wrong?”

    If it is a wrong choice to choose a “Gay” lifestyle, it is still a choice. My son will not always make the correct or “right” decisions, but he must live with the consequences/results of his decisions. It is imparitive that we “Mormons,” as LDS respect the right of people to choose. after all it is in our articals of faith. The agency to choose right or wrong should no be hindered for any responcible Adult.

    I don’t see the bennifits for gay-marrage, it’s cheeper each year to just get a civil union, and many states (CA, OR, NY) respect the rights of civil-uinon as marrage. the married couples just pay more in Tax pennalities.

    Good day,
    -D

    Reply

  5. Posted by ethingtoneric on November 19, 2008 at 3:11 pm

    Kyle;

    Thanks for your response! Just a couple of follow up comments, please don’t compare being gay to drinking or drug usage, just as I wouldn’t compare your being straight to those things.
    One common thing I bring up to people in the LDS church who take this stance, is that what “Heavenly Father” is asking homosexuals to do (according to church doctrine), is give up any chance of being happy in this life, for the possibility of attaining exaltation. But the issue with this is not only the lack of happiness in this life (not ALL happiness of course, but the happiness that comes from being with one whom you truly love), but that even after attaining exaltation, you are still sealed to one whom you cannot every truly love.
    I believe that God wants us to be happy, and you can only truly be happy by accepting yourself for who you truly are, and accepting others for who they are. As you said, people are born the way they are inside, and trying to change that can only bring misery and self-loathing. How would you feel if God had said that you must be gay to go back to live with him? That’s not who you are, and you would just be putting up a facade to act otherwise.

    Thanks again for your comments!

    Eric

    Reply

  6. Posted by ethingtoneric on November 19, 2008 at 3:17 pm

    Ditchu;

    Thank you for your comment! I would like to ask you a follow up question if that’s ok. From your comment, I assume that you are married (if I’m wrong in my assumption, please forgive me)? Would you say that the only benefits of your marriage are of the civil union nature? ie tax benefits etc.. Or would you say there’s an extreme emotional and well-being benefit as well?

    Thanks Again!
    Eric Ethington

    Reply

  7. Posted by Kyle on November 19, 2008 at 3:30 pm

    I appreciate your responses. I know that you and I see this issue very differently. And thats fine. We are all different and need to be accepting of others. I hope you don’t feel that I am not accepting of others’ choices, because I am. I hope that all of this can someday be resolved

    Reply

  8. If this ever happened to me, I would immediately turn to the Savior and His church for guidance. Obviously, this would be very saddening, especially if he/she were adamant about not receiving help of any kind.

    We have been blessed to have Elder Dallin H. Oaks speak on this exact topic of what to do when/if you’re child comes out:

    You’re my son. You will always be my son, and I’ll always be there to help you.

    The distinction between feelings or inclinations on the one hand, and behavior on the other hand, is very clear. It’s no sin to have inclinations that if yielded to would produce behavior that would be a transgression. The sin is in yielding to temptation. Temptation is not unique. Even the Savior was tempted.

    Everyone has some challenges they have to struggle with. You’ve described a particular kind of challenge that is very vexing. It is common in our society and it has also become politicized. But it’s only one of a host of challenges men and women have to struggle with, and I just encourage you to seek the help of the Savior to resist temptation and to refrain from behavior that would cause you to have to repent or to have your Church membership called into question.

    I would strive to move forward with that counsel.

    Reply

  9. Posted by ethingtoneric on November 19, 2008 at 5:04 pm

    Jesse;

    Thank you for your comment. This is interesting counsel to be given. Out of curiosity, are you familiar with the statistics of the extreme emotional and physical toll this takes on children to have their parents tell them that being themselves is a sin? It’s really hard to hear from your parents that you need “help,” that somehow you need to be fixed.

    Eric Ethington

    Reply

  10. Hey Eric,

    No, I am not aware of any statistics, though I imagine it would be very difficult. Might we all take comfort in these divine statements of truth:

    There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
    -1 Cor. 10:13

    And also:

    And it came to pass that I, Nephi, said unto my father: I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.
    -1 Nep. 3:7

    Reply

  11. Posted by ethingtoneric on November 19, 2008 at 5:30 pm

    Hey Jesse;

    As you may recall in some of our previous conversations, although I was raised LDS, I am no longer a member. So quoting scripture doesn’t really help.

    The issue is that being Gay is not a temptation, it’s who people are. Expecting them to act any differently would be the same as asking you to act gay because God asked you to. Do you think that’s contributive to a healthy life? I have great respect for the Mormon church, but I cannot understand the extremeness of some of their demands on their members. No drinking, smoking, swearing etc.. makes perfect sense. But when they ask people to act in ways that will cause unhappiness for their whole lives.. sigh, it’s a big contributor to why Utah has one of the highest mormon-teen suicide rates, closet female drinkers, and divorce rates in the country.

    Eric Ethington

    Reply

  12. E-

    It would seem an appropiate follow-up question, if It were not for the fact of my Marrage (yes you guessed right) was not originally founded by my elopment with my wife.

    What is the differance with elopment and the usual marrage preformed, have to do with the bennifit question? Well, in a way my marrage is a civil union with all of the “benifits” leagelly granted to such unions, but I do have to pay a Tax penility when ever I file Taxes. This is in no way a benifit for marrage, it means more money is taken from my familie’s use and put toward the Government’s/Public use. In my State, this penality does not apply to Civil Unions, only those classified under Marrages. (the whole marrage license thing should be revised, before anyother changes occur to the marrage laws)

    Well here is the big thing, the real benifits of a marrage have nothing to do with the Law. If two people are commited to eachother, when they undergo some binding Ceromony or Rite (usually Religous but always Cultural) they have started the process of joining themselves into one entity, this can be seen in the leagel process of mergers, which is what a Civil union is, the merger of two entities (in this case two people) into one entity, (in this case the family). but the real benifit of such a merger/marrage is from the relationship.

    The bennifits of my “Marrage” can be had by any two people that have complete love for eachother and have entered into such commitments.

    Now I did undergo a “cultural” cermony many years after my leagel marrage. That has introduced the bennifits that I am currently reeping. The re-commitial has made me re-focus upon the relationship. (by the way the “cultural Cermony” I am talking about is a sealing of our relationship for all time and eturnity, preformed in the LDS Temple. It is a Cultural Cermony that is not offered to all, thus it stands outside the bounds of your follow-up question.

    All in all, what do you think the “Benifits” of a Marrage/Civil Union are? The tax issue is not at all a benifit for “Marrages.”

    Good day,
    -D

    Reply

  13. Posted by ethingtoneric on November 19, 2008 at 6:03 pm

    Ditchu;

    Thanks for the reply!

    I’m familiar with the LDS temple ceremony, as I was onced married in the SL temple myself. The benefits I’m talking about are the emotional benefits of having such a special ceremony tying two people together (whether you believe in for time or for eternity). But in the case of Gay Marriage, another enormous benefit is being able to feel as if you are not a second-class citizen to the rest of the country, that you are equal to all others. It has nothing to do with religion, I believe that marriage is a secular and civil right. But no one person’s relationship should be above anothers in the eyes of the law.

    This is why I take offense with any religion getting involved in the debate. I don’t believe that a religion should (or would) be forced to perform any ceremony that is against its own beliefs ( https://ethingtoneric.wordpress.com/2008/11/15/eric-ethingtons-speech-from-the-national-impact-equality-march/ ), and as such, should not have a voice as to what to people have the right to do in the civil arena. Civil Unions, are wonderful, and give people many of the same rights as married couples. But how can a nation that was started on the principles of freedom and democracy say that that is enough? To be similar to, but not equal to others?

    Thanks again for your reply!
    Eric Ethington

    Reply

  14. e-

    I am cerous why you used the these words to express something to do with this issue: “statistics of the extreme emotional and physical toll this takes on children to have their parents tell them that being themselves is a sin?”

    Are we not talking about Physical attraction, and sexuality?
    When do you remove people from the children catagory? I perplexes me that one would have statistics on children and their sexual/attraction preferances. What age groups are targeted in these Statistics?

    If it is under 13, then these Younsters should not concern themselves with sexuality in the first place.
    If it is between 13 and 16 then there are statistics that suggest they would not care what their parents told them as they think they know better.
    If after 16, then ther are not in the least Children aged, and should be clasified as adolsent or adult.

    What scares me is that there may be statistics out there about children (young children) and their sexual preferances. It makes my wonder if there is any abuse issues involved.

    Good Day,
    -D

    Reply

  15. Posted by ethingtoneric on November 19, 2008 at 6:13 pm

    Ditchu;

    Children start becoming aware of the sexuality around puberty of course. This is not to say they start becoming sexually active, but they become aware of themselves. And to say that children of 13-16 don’t care what their parents tell them is incredibly inaccurate. Children almost always listen to their parents. This is not to say that they will always obey their parents, but they do listen. And when parents are telling their children that their feelings are evil or a sin, or just wrong in general, it does extreme emotional damage to their psyche. I would say that most often, children of 13, although gay do not realize it (or at least haven’t defined it) yet, but hearing parents go on about those types of people (even if not directed at themselves), establishes in them those feelings of it being evil, so a few years later when they start realizing why they feel so different, they start viewing themselves as evil, and that they must reject their own true feelings. I sure you can agree that is not healthy.

    Eric Ethington

    Reply

  16. Eric,

    I’ve found that people of religion who defend their beliefs with religion will rarely be understood by the non-religious, and vice versa. This is already evident in our conversation here.

    Expecting them to act any differently would be the same as asking you to act gay because God asked you to. Do you think that’s contributive to a healthy life?

    If I understand you right, you mean that the Lord is expecting them to act heterosexual (i.e., form heterosexual relationships)? If this is what you’re referring to, here is the response of Elder Oaks:

    We are sometimes asked about whether marriage is a remedy for these feelings that we have been talking about. President Hinckley, faced with the fact that apparently some had believed it to be a remedy, and perhaps that some Church leaders had even counseled marriage as the remedy for these feelings, made this statement: “Marriage should not be viewed as a therapeutic step to solve problems such as homosexual inclinations or practices.” To me that means that we are not going to stand still to put at risk daughters of God who would enter into such marriages under false pretenses or under a cloud unknown to them. Persons who have this kind of challenge that they cannot control could not enter marriage in good faith.

    On the other hand, persons who have cleansed themselves of any transgression and who have shown their ability to deal with these feelings or inclinations and put them in the background, and feel a great attraction for a daughter of God and therefore desire to enter marriage and have children and enjoy the blessings of eternity — that’s a situation when marriage would be appropriate.

    President Hinckley said that marriage is not a therapeutic step to solve problems.

    Further, Elder Oaks has also explained how heterosexuals are held to the exact same standard as those with same-sex attraction are: celibacy outside of marriage.

    But when they ask people to act in ways that will cause unhappiness for their whole lives.

    Wickedness never was happiness.

    God bless.

    Reply

  17. Posted by ethingtoneric on November 19, 2008 at 6:27 pm

    Jesse;

    I agree with the first statement, I do not believe that the church counsels people to get married to combat their homosexual orientation. However, the church does teach that although someone may have a same-sex orientation, they should simply choose not to act on it.

    For your last comment. It is both extremely offensive, and contradictory. The church leaders believe that some people are naturally homosexual, as such, those people would be truly the happiest by falling in love, and having a healthy relationship with someone of the same sex. Ask any homosexual you happen to know, and they will tell you that, just as a straight couple, that brings them the greatest joy.

    Eric Ethington

    Reply

  18. Yes, but that “happiness” is not true happiness. If not realized in this life, it will certainly be realized in the next.

    Reply

  19. E-

    You say that you would not let Religion dictate what the law would place as “equal” rights, but you suggest that the religion and the law should be a part of the sacred relationship of Parent and child?

    Puzzling, I would think the hirachy of relationship would be the oppsite, Self-Family-Faith-Comunity.

    but you have put it like Community before faith, Faith before Family, Family before self. Just my observation.

    By the way the Law gives no more right to Marrage than to Civil Union, for it sees Marrage as a form of Civil Union. Else why do they call legal papers for Devorce, disillusion of civil union?

    I accually think differently about marrage than you state. I believe that the Law should have nothing to do with marrage, but Faith and religion should because it is a religious institution, not a legal one.
    The Civil Union is what makes a Marrage a legal binding of two parties, in this case two persons.

    I just do not know why the Civil Unions don’t have to pay the same penilities as the “Married” couples do each year.

    good night,
    -D

    Reply

  20. Posted by ethingtoneric on November 20, 2008 at 12:53 am

    Ditchu;

    Not sure what you’re talking about actually :). I believe that religion should have nothing to do with a persons civil rights. I believe religion exists in a persons life for their morality (among other things), but not to hinder another persons life. Freedom from religion was why the pilgrims came to this continent in the first place.

    In response to your 2nd comment, it is correct that Civil Unions can have the same legal privileges as marriage, however you would be fooling yourself to believe that they are equal in peoples minds. Marriage is a very sacred relationship between two people, and although one may have all the rights of marriage, it’s just not the same.

    Now if the country were to change everything, and the state ONLY gave out civil unions, to anyone (straight or gay) and it was only religions that used the term marriage, that would be different. But such is not the case in the USA.

    Eric

    Reply

  21. E-

    Now you are mixing the spiritual into the legal.

    People have the same rights, the Civil Union is the same legally if you call it marrage or partnership, joint effort, or just gettin’ hitched.

    a “Marrage” again is a spiritural matter and Religion and Culture is very much invloved in a Marrage, not so much with the legal issue of Civil Union. The entire thing of the value in one’s mind is exactly the cultural influance we are talking about but has nothing to do with the Law, or “Equal Rights.”

    -D

    Reply

  22. Posted by Casandra on November 20, 2008 at 10:27 am

    Eric, I don’t know how you do it! Reading and even trying to understand how anybody can disregard the lives and feelings of their follow humans—their brothers and sisters—brings me an overwhelming sense of disappointment in my species. I feel utterly discouraged and despondent.

    It seems to me that people, in general, are mean and spiteful. And in a world where everybody is trying so hard to be politically correct, for people to not only believe the things that are in this blog comment bin, but to the have the audacity to say them out loud is confounding. For people to not believe that they are being hateful, spiteful, and cruel astounds me.

    In a world as barren of true love for the people who surround us—in a world that seems to hate homosexuality as if it’s some sort of communicable and deadly plague, to continue to live the life you lead, as a gay man, a leader in your community, and as a good, just person, is truly noteworthy. Anybody who manages to surmount what seems to me the insurmountable task of getting up everyday and facing a world where people hate you just for who you are gets my respect and admiration (which is surprisingly hard to come by). So, here’s to you! Cheers!

    Reply

  23. Posted by Casandra on November 20, 2008 at 10:55 am

    And by “follow humans,” I mean “fellow humans.”

    Reply

  24. Posted by ethingtoneric on November 20, 2008 at 2:47 pm

    Cassandra;

    Thank you for your comments!

    Ditchu;

    I’m not mixing spiritual with civil rights unfortunately. For while the secondary rights may be the same (as stated tax, death, family benefits etc..), when you get married civily, by a judge with no religion involved, it’s still called marriage. You get a “marriage” certificate. Calling it any different in the case of non-traditional marriages makes it 2nd class. This is the same thing as back in the 60’s (and prior) when there were white and black laundrymats. Were the clothes still washed in black-only laundrymants? Yes! Does that make them equal? No.

    Eric.

    Reply

  25. Posted by ali on November 20, 2008 at 3:18 pm

    if little johnny/jill, the tentative future spawn of my loins, come up to me one day and say that they’re gay, i will hope that the world will be an easier place for them to live than the world i grew up with.

    i will tell them that love is love is love. just find someone that loves you, treats you well, and makes you happy. the world’s a rough place; find your harbor in the storm.

    will i be disappointed if my kids turn out gay or straight or bi, or what have you? no, not at all. will i care if they’re deadbeats? yes. happy? yes. i will care about the legitimate things. the things that matter. my children’s sexuality is really something that does not matter much. it matters just about as much as their eye color. brown, green, blue, whatever. i just want my children to grow up to be good people.

    Reply

  26. Posted by ali on November 20, 2008 at 3:19 pm

    criminy, people. they’re YOUR kids. just love them already. want only the best for them, and give them only the best.

    Reply

  27. E-

    I did not say you were mixing civil and Religous rights but mixing the religous and legal practices. Leagally “Marrage” is just one form of Civil Union, as I have stated above. In fact the term Marrage is not a legal term and is used for the benifit of the layman, most lawers will see no differance in the legal use of Civil Union with the common use of the term Marrage. As a Civil Right, however, Marrage or even Civil Unions was not a right as I understand. If it is, can you correct me by telling me which admendment to the bill of rights protects the right to Civil union or “Marrage?”

    I would love to know, as little as I have research it I did not come up with “the right to wed,” “The right to marry,” or even “the right to union.”

    FYI my “Marrage certificate” Application only had the term Marrage in an after note, the application was for a Union in Civil Court or something like that (i’ll have to pull out my copy to see exactlly what it is Legally called) then it sayd in perenticies: (Application for license for Marrage). indicating that it is not the legal termonology for the document but a common name.

    In fact in my county you can apply with the same form as I did.

    Is all of this really about the common term “Marrage” or do you want to define it in legal terms?

    -D

    Good Night,
    -D

    Reply

  28. Posted by ethingtoneric on November 20, 2008 at 6:49 pm

    Ali –
    Good for you!!

    Ditchu-
    We’re covering alot of the same things now, but to make it as clear as possible for you, it is immoral, unconstitutional, and wrong for one person to be able to marry another, but then to turn around and deny another person of being able to do the same thing. Remember, this is about EQUALITY. The Gay Movement is not asking for special treatment, or different or better rights than others. They are asking that if one person can legally do something, ALL people should be able to do the same thing. “We the people” does not mean “straight only.”

    Reply

  29. E-

    You are correct that We the people implies all people. But when is it a right for anyone to Marry, or even join in a civil union? I do not think it is a right but like many things is a privlage, or just something people can do that is not percisely protected as a right. Again please find for me where the bill of rights including any admendments outlines the right to a marrage or even the right to a civil union. I think you are being too broad in stating that it is a right. Also I on a personal note do not have an issue with people marrying, I do not have issue with same-sex couples even calling their union a marrage, as I call my union with my wife a marrage. It is your choice but I do not dare say it is a right.

    I think the real underlining issue with this whole thing is that “The People” put it to vote, and the voters spoke with their ballots, when it came out in favor of a legal definition that “Marrage” is the joining or one man and one woman, the oppsition turned out in anger. I think the “Same-sex marrage movement” should have first made it clear that Marrage (however you want to name it is a right, then moved forward in declairing the whole Civil Rights propaganda. How can it be a Civil rights issue if it has yet to be legalised as a Right?

    Because CEO’s of large companies get big payments from investors, does not mean that it is a right that I should get those payments thought that would be fair and equal as I do as much work as smoe of them do (60 hour weeks are a killer)… Because a large amount of people can leave and reenter the country does not make it a right for me. Because a lot of people do something does not make it a right. For something to be a Right, it must be protected by the Law, that is the whole reason of the Bill of rights, and admendments to the contistution of the Unites States of America. Where in all of those documents does it state that I have a Right to Marriage?

    No, my friend, it is not a Right, and that is why there is a license one must apply for, to enter any form of Civil Union.

    You have equal rights, people. You have more than equal rights. You can get an easy exit from the military just by telling, by outing yourself, I on the otherhand have not that convience. Ahhh, but you may think you live with Hate aginst you, but that is not much different than I. Even I, a peaceful loving “righteous” man, had death threats as a child, I had the living S…tuffing kicked out of me when I was just 7. I had people, real people, full of hatred after me. And for no good reason, as the Hatred of anything different… there is no good reason.

    God bless you, maybe you will be the differance to resolve this issue,

    -D

    Reply

  30. Posted by ethingtoneric on November 20, 2008 at 11:57 pm

    Ditchu;

    I’m getting a little tired of rehashing the same things, so I’ll just add one quick note. Gay Marriage is legal in Massachusetts, Connecticut, and until Nov 4th, California. It was illegal to strip a minority of civil rights in CA until they had a 2/3rds majority legislative backing (which is why the CA supreme court has agreed to hear the case and hopefully will be repealing Prop 8). 2nd, I don’t know your background, but do not EVER say that getting out of the military because you are gay is a special right! That is the most insulting, bigotted form of thinking you could have. I would be proud to serve my country, and I CAN’T! Do not ever rationalize in your head (on any civil rights issue) that it’s ok for some people to get to do things while others can’t. If you want to be a CEO, you can do it! Go to school, get the training, and WORK FOR IT! We on the other hand cannot currently attain marital status, regardless of what we do! Good luck.

    Eric

    Reply

  31. E-
    Sorry to offer the offence. I did not suggest that getting out of the military was a “Right.” I think that is my whole point though, Marrage is not a Right in the legal sence.

    Also what is preventing you from serving your country? It is not your sexual preferance, as that is not a preventing issue since ex-President Clinton passed the “Don’t ask” polocies.

    It is my point that one must “WORK FOR” the things they want to do, so I thank you for that. I do think it is sad that one person can do some-things and others that can do the same think they cannot. my final statment is that “Marrage” is a Civil Union.

    -D

    Reply

  32. Posted by ali on November 21, 2008 at 4:53 pm

    ditchu-
    the united states is actually a republic; sure we have democratic elements within our infrastructure, but by and large, we are a republic. one of the great things and obligations about having a republic is this nagging little thing that says the majority should not hold total sway over the minority. balances are put in place so that everyone is protected, and that things don’t descend into oligarchy, authoritarianism, etc. the idea of democracy is kinda neat, but it’s also really good at creating bullies.

    also, aren’t there other legitimate ways of serving your country other than joining the military? i mean, for the sake of argument? i do lots in my community: i volunteer and give money to local organizations that actually help the citizens of this county (and no, not just the gays). and i didn’t even have to learn to to assemble a rifle.

    and just one last point. it’s MARRIAGE. with an “i”.

    Reply

  33. ali,

    Gratzi, My fingers sometines type faster than my mind.

    M A R R I A G E, thankyou.

    And you are correct that serving one’s country can be done in a plethura of ways. Starting local is the best way to create positive change.

    I get the Republic stuff but I am unsure what “Balances” are in place for a vote on propisitions, after they are sent to the People for a majority vote?

    -D

    Reply

  34. Posted by ali on November 21, 2008 at 5:53 pm

    D-

    sorry to be a spelling nazi. but no more ‘marrage’ flubs, mister 🙂

    quite frankly, we are seeing one example of balance right now: the fact that motions have been filed to challenge prop 8 in courts. we elect judges to, er, well judge for us. because if every single court case was voted upon by the people we all would have done ourselves in long ago.

    so prop 8 is going to go back to the people that deemed it unconstitutional in the first place (and hopefully they should know the law, that’s why they were elected and that is what they’re being paid for).

    prop 8 has been such a giant waste of money. it will be overturned after wasting more taxpayer money, and future motions to instill it again are likely to be denied. though, undeniably, someone will spend even more money to send it BACK and yadda yadda yadda. black hole of money. waste of time. round and round it goes until it hits the supreme court. maybe. i guess we’ll see.

    but my guess is that if it does get to the united states supreme court, gay marriage will really become legal. they will use lawrence v. texas as precedent, and prop 8 will be overturned (lawrence v. texas was the sodomy case, fyi if you were wondering). and then i’ll have myself a big glass of champagne and rest on my laurels.

    -ali

    Reply

  35. After reading several of the comments here, I am curious and would like to pose an additional question: If you believe that homosexuals should not be allowed to be married, as it is ordained of god, then should atheists and agnostics be allowed to marry?

    Reply

  36. I assume that when you say “homosexuals” you mean two people of the same-sex, and not just someone who is attracted to the same-sex, right?

    There is no problem with atheists and agnostics getting married. As long as it is one man and one woman, and they get married for the right reasons, it is just the same as heterosexuals getting married.

    Reply

  37. Posted by James Sullivan on May 21, 2009 at 8:14 pm

    Good article on this very topic:

    Why Gay Marriage Law Matters – http://www.marriagenewsnow.com

    http://tiny.cc/lnBTe

    Reply

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